When we are struggling with an overeating habit, does that mean that we’re extra sensitive to the thinking that’s going on within us?
This is the question I posed to my friend Jonelle Simms. We go deep into the source of our thinking, if we can in fact be ‘too’ sensitive to it, where our moods come from, how little control we have over them, and much more.
After having a significant insight that fundamentally changed her understanding life, Jonelle left her career as a corporate trainer, curriculum developer, coach, and organizational development specialist to work in support of those in her community facing the challenges of poverty, homelessness, illness, addiction, and marginalization.
She created the ProcrastinationPublications.com website in 2013 simply as a resource for herself and those interested in the Three Principles. No new resources have been added since 2018, but she keeps the site live for anyone to access. Her occasional blogs can be found on the website, with the more recent ones posted regularly on her 3P Services page on Facebook.
- The relief of realizing how our experience of life is made up
- Viewing depression from a different perspective
- On the impermeable line between experience and circumstances
- How we are always feeling our thinking
Resources mention in this episode
Transcript of Interview with Jonelle Simms
Alexandra: Jonelle Sims, welcome to Unbroken.
Jonelle: Thank you, Alexandra.
Alexandra: It’s nice to see you.
Jonelle: Nice to see you, too.
Alexandra: Today is going to be a little bit different. I’ll just explain to the listeners that it’s going to be less of an interview and more of a conversation since you and I are friends. And I had this subject come up that I was interested in.
So before we jump into that, why don’t you tell us about your background, how you got interested in the principles.
Jonelle: I’m somewhat retired right now. But my background was in training and people development. And for a long time, I spent learning how to fix myself and other people through self-help. But I still suffered a little bit from ongoing depression.
At some point, I just eventually gave up because I got fed up with trying to fix myself. And at that time, when I came across the three principles, and I think there’s some significance in that, although who knows, they say, once you surrender, then you all of a sudden, you see things that you didn’t see before, so or when the student’s ready, the teacher appears.
But I wasn’t looking so I stopped reading books, I stopped doing all of that stuff. And I just happened to come across a blog of a former manager that I used to work for. And she mentioned working with someone else that I knew. And they were working with these people called the Pranskys.
I knew everything about self-help but I’d never heard of Pransky before. So I just googled their name. And I came across this thing called the Three Principles movie site, which doesn’t exist anymore, it’s stored on another website. Anyway, I just watched a couple of the videos, Syd Banks and George Pransky, Linda Pransky, and then Jack Pransky.
And it was about an hour in probably watching them and thinking how unprofessional the videos were like, they’re just, these people having these conversations. I just was snickering, or they’re laughing at the time and are being amused by it. And at some point, I just heard Jack Pransky say:
“How can we take ourselves seriously in light of the fact that we’re making it up?”
I’d never heard anything like the before. I had a huge physical change from one moment before I was fully in the heaviness of my experience of life in thought. And the next moment, I was just free of it all. I realized how all my suffering had been self-created through my thinking unknowingly and innocently.
And I just experienced a spiritual awakening; I felt this experience of impersonal unconditional love. And I realized, this is what God is. This is what all the ways have been pointing to throughout time. So the experience lasted about three days. And then I slowly started getting back to, how I felt before.
But since then, I’ve always had that as a North Star for me, there’s a truth in that for me that I can keep on leaning back into. And I’ve just been unwrapping that for the last 10 years since but it’s slowly realizing the next layer of personal crazy of thinking that I added to my existence that makes me suffer. So much smell I came across the principles.
Alexandra: What effect do you think this understanding has had on your life?
Jonelle: It’s odd because it doesn’t feel like it’s changed anything and yet it also at the same time feels profoundly significant. It’s like all the outer world around me hasn’t changed. I’m still in the same body. I still have the same house and the same friends.
I was working the same job, so none of that really changed immediately. But over time, at the same time, I saw everything differently. I was different. It was like I was looking through different eyes. I was experiencing everything differently. I wasn’t getting as triggered or upset by things I wasn’t.
I just knew that there was this other truth. And even if I did get upset, which I still did lots, I still do, I come out of it quicker. I have some sense of I know what’s going on. So I don’t have to dig into it as deeply as I did before.
So I don’t feel like a lot of people really haven’t said that. I’ve changed at all. But I certainly feel like there’s a Jonelle before, there was a clear Jonelle before that experience and a Jonelle after. Right.
Alexandra: And you talked about, and we’ve touched on this before about the self-help exploration and dealing with depression.
What’s your experience of depression since then?
Jonelle: I still have it. I’m still in and out of it. But I see it entirely differently. And I just have a different experience of it. In some cases, it can feel even worse than it did before. The feelings can be even stronger in some ways. But there’s this part of me that knows what’s going on.
And it’s like, well, this is the latest thing that my thinking is up to and, and I’m more accepting of it or understanding of it. I know what’s happening in a way. I don’t know how it’s happening or why it’s happening. And sometimes I want to know how and why.
But I’m just aware that there’s almost like, the whole thing created a separation between me and my experience of life, so now there’s this little me, Jonelle, the little girl who I’ve been all along. And before I was attached to all the experiences outside of me and within me, and now it’s like I get to be more of I still have the pain I still have suffering still has challenges.
But I’m more of a watcher because I’m aware that in between me and the experience is this flow of thinking that’s creating in me that experience, regardless of what’s going on outside of me or inside of me.
Alexandra: That makes sense. Very well said. Thank you.
I approached you and said that I’d had this experience and wanted to talk about it. So for the for the listeners, I’ll just explain.
I was in Portland a few weeks ago with Michael Neill and Barbara Patterson at a little weekend retreat.
Michael had explained the difference between experience and circumstances and how there’s an impermeable line between those two things. And we innocently, before we come across this understanding, think that they’re the same. We think that we have a circumstance that’s going on and that our experience is, is a reaction to that circumstance.
And so we had been having that discussion for a little while. So that was a way of explaining the nature of thought that it comes from the inside out. It doesn’t come from the outside in, even though we often think it looks that way.
There was this woman who was asking a question, and one of the things that she was explaining was that she felt like she was a sensitive person to the people around her.
So her mom was actually there at the retreat with her, and they’re very close. And, she said, she often, feel could feel upset or whatever if her mom was going through something. And so, what she was pointing to was what she was trying to say to Michael was, it’s not that way, it doesn’t come from the inside out. It comes from the outside in.
And what he actually said in response to her was, well, you’re not actually sensitive to what’s going on the outside. You’re sensitive to your thinking. And it really rocked my world. I got so much out of the weekend, and I learned a lot and connected with so many nice people.
But that sentence was the thing I really walked away with and haven’t been contemplating ever since.
When you hear that we are sensitive to our thinking, what comes up for you?
Jonelle: I’ve been reflecting on it too, since you shared it with me. Because I have all sorts of ideas that can come up about it, but I’m curious.
First, what was it that you got out of it? Why do you think it shook you up a little bit or rocked your world a little bit?
Alexandra: Great question. I’ve been in this understanding for several years now. So I knew, and I know that our experience comes from the inside out. But it was that word sensitive. That was the thing that really struck me.
And I guess what occurred to me was that, I guess where I was wondering if, since on this podcast, I often talk about dealing with unwanted habits.
So I started to wonder if people with unwanted habits are a little more sensitive to their thinking than others. And if that’s part of what’s going on, so there was that aspect to it.
The other part was that it just really reinforced this idea that our experience is coming from the inside out, it’s not coming from the outside in. And there’s some other stuff in there too. But I’ll stop there for now.
Jonelle: I love that. I like, as you were talking about the sensitivity, I had been reflecting on that, too. And I was thinking that, in a way, we’re all very sensitive, every human being is sensitive. I think what it is, it’s just what we’re sensitive to, it’s that whatever track of our thinking that attracts our attention the most.
So, for me, I call it my personal crazy, it’s the habitual stuff that keeps coming back that I tend to focus on. So for example, right now, I was sick a lot when I was a little kid, and being sick was a theme of mine for a variety of reasons. And so I already have a lot of thinking about it.
And lately, over the last year and longer, I’ve been getting more and more symptoms that are bothering me. And I have noticed that when I wake up in the morning, that’s the first thing I’m doing with my mind is checking my body for all the different parts that are then I was curious about that, like, why don’t I just wake up happy and ready to start the day?
Why am I already going through this inventory of what’s bothering me?
And that’s just what I am sensitive to, that’s what I’ve had a habit of paying more attention to. And I have other things that I pay attention to. But there are other things that, over the last ten years, I told you, I’ve been unpacking this. I’m beginning to become more aware of the things that I wasn’t aware of before, and noticing how I can just see one thing, and then all of a sudden all notice something else.
So one example is I go for these neighborhood walks. And probably lots of people go for neighborhood walks and don’t really pay much attention to their surroundings. But I have this sensitivity to noticing all the quirky weird stuff in people’s yards and their houses or the cat peeking out the window or things that appear funny to me.
I saw this sculpture that someone had made, and then they put these four wheels and bicycle parts on a fence. And I just thought that’s really weird looking and cool. I took a picture of it. And I didn’t think much more about it. And also what was interesting was there was a path up to the bicycle.
I thought that’s great, there’s a path through the snow that I can get to take a better picture of it because I’ve only got my cell phone with me. So I was happy about that. And so I walk away with my picture, and I take it home.
And this often happens, I look at the picture, and I see more in it than I did when I was standing right next to it. So before, it was just four wheels, and there were bicycle parts. But then when I looked at it a couple more times again, I noticed, oh, my goodness, all the wheels are attached. And what the person has done is there’s a pedal crank in the middle.
And if you crank the pedal in the middle, then all four wheels will spin. So it’s like I had a sensitivity to noticing something that other people might not have noticed in this sculpture. But I didn’t have a sensitivity that other people have probably noticed because there was a path right up to that bike that impelled them to go up and crank. They noticed the crank right away.
And I didn’t until later. So I think there’s that stuff. That we can begin to see how we’re sensitive to things like that when we’re not sensitive to others and sensitive just being another word for me where my habit of focus goes.
Alexandra: That’s such a great way to look at it. I love that. And I, as you’re saying that, I think you’re exactly right. And, I was, as just before we started our call, I was sitting here thinking about the times when I feel sensitive to stuff, and there are certain areas of life where I do and where things feel high stakes is the way I wrote it down.
And then there’s other stuff. And I can just notice if I’m with someone else or in a situation where the other person is feeling very sensitive to something, and it might not have even occurred to me to notice whatever that thing was that was going on.
So, another example would be say, if someone is frightened of dogs, and you’re out for a walk, and I might not even notice that there’s a dog coming towards me. But the person who’s worried about that would.
Jonelle: That makes total sense to me too. Because if I’m always sensitive to or paying attention to what I think is going on in other people’s minds, then I’m going to think that I’m experiencing their experience, and I have some sensitivity to that, too. I’ve been around some people who I know who are angry.
And so I walk a little bit on eggshells around them, so in those because of, I know, of a particular habit of experience, or frequency of experience, I’m sensitive in a different way with that person, that I wouldn’t be with another person who I don’t pay attention to their mood at all, because they don’t freak out. So there’s also that where those kinds of things will happen.
Alexandra: Exactly. And one of the things that occurred to me as well, while I was thinking about this was Mavis Karn has this great quote:
You can’t slip a thought past the body.
What occurred to me is that one of the reasons that we might feel like we’re sensitive to things is because we’re noticing the reaction of our body when we have certain thoughts about certain things.
So this young woman, going back to the example at the workshop, one of her examples was really about her mom, and she was really connected to her mom and felt like when her mum was upset, it really affected her. So what occurred to me was that those thoughts that were occurring about her mom, if her mom was upset, do have some resonance in her body, she does feel that.
Somebody else might have a relationship with their mom where they don’t have that going on.
Jonelle: I would guess there’d be some dynamic that she doesn’t want her mother to be upset. And so she’s sensitive to that, and though it’s always on guard or and paying attention to that. So, because internally, she’s got lots of thinking about that, and it does something to her within. One of the things that came to mind, when you were talking about that was an example of when you see a movie or a video of a guy who gets hit in the groin.
I don’t have what men do, but when it happens, I do get a visceral sensation to it, like, I can feel my body go into a fetal position. I can feel my stomach tighten up right away, and I can feel a focus on the groin area like he can, and I don’t even have, but it’s really powerful. That feeling when I see that happen, I can feel it in me right away. Now, nothing has happened to me. I’m just watching something on a screen.
And I’m interpreting what I see with my own thinking. And as I’m interpreting it, somehow, my body is not only giving me thoughts about it, but feelings about it at the same time, even though I don’t have the same equipment, it’s a very convincing feeling that and it happens instantaneously. Like, that’s the other thing, too, with thought.
There’s no discernible time between my experiences happening outside of me or within me, whatever the experiences or circumstances and my experience of them, even though there is this interpretation system going on, I don’t notice the interpretation system. It happens immediately.
Alexandra: Such a good point. It’s so instantaneous that, of course, we would assume that it that we’re responding to the outside.
Jonelle: Exactly. And it’s interesting that we don’t see that because we do know how movies affect us, you can just see something come up on the screen, and you’ll start tearing up right away because what’s going to happen in a commercial or story or whatever. And or have any reaction, whatever it is, my husband and I will watch some of our favorite funny movies.
And we’re already looking at each other and laughing in preparation for the next thing that’s coming up, it hasn’t even happened yet. Because we know it so well. So there, there is this thing about it happening instantaneously. But for me, since I had that experience. I don’t have any questions of where my experience is coming from.
It always appears to me, I shouldn’t say it always appears to me. I know the truth of it at some level all the time, but I forget it all the time, it really does feel to me like my anger or frustration or laughter or whatever it is being created entirely by whatever in the world is bumping into me in that moment.
But I realize, it’s almost like there is something where light comes into a crystal, and but it’s like its light will come into the crystal. And so it clearly comes into the crystal and comes out of the crystal, but it comes in as a solid beam of white light, and that refracts into 1000s of colors of other lights. And it’s like to a certain extent, that’s what my thought is, is it’s like a crystal.
So these things happen. But they come through my thought system. And then, somehow, my thought system chooses one of those beams of light in how to experience it. And that’s where my sensitivity is, I’m more sensitive to the green light that comes out rather than the blue light or the yellow light, or in that particular situation.
Maybe I’m not so sensitive to the green light. I’m more sensitive to the yellow light because just because I’m more aware of it or protecting myself in some way. It’s a habit that we learn to pay attention to.
Alexandra: If someone has a certain area in their life like you mentioned, angry people, that’s a bit of a sensitivity for me I don’t deal with, when people are really angry, I tend to freak out a little bit because I was raised by very angry people.
So if we have a situation like that, where we’re feeling sensitive to it, what do you think, if anything, we can do about that sensitivity?
Jonelle: I mean, always, my first reaction is that I can’t know what anyone else should do. I can only know how to potentially navigate myself. And the only thing I know is that I can be aware of it or not. So sometimes, the experience will happen, and I’ll get maybe anxious. And I won’t realize that I’m in my anxiousness.
And I will do stuff to protect myself because of that anxiousness, not even realizing what I’m doing. But sometimes, when anxiousness arises that I’ll always, I always feel it in my body, just it’s whether I noticed it or not. And so sometimes I’ll notice it.
And sometimes that noticing is enough to give me some distance from my automatic reaction to it. It’s like a space between the action and the reaction. Now, it doesn’t mean that I still won’t go into my crazy thinking, because I just never know what’s going to happen in the moment. It’s almost like there is a wave of up and down the level of consciousness or whatever you want to put it.
If I tend to be in a better mood, or I’m feeling pretty good. When an anxious thought appears, I will just happen to be less likely to glom on to it. Whereas if I’m already in a bad mood and anxiousness arises, then it’ll be stickier. And I have not noticed in 10 years anyway, have changed, it still happens.
But I have a very strong sense that because I do see things differently than I did before and know, at some level, there’s a part of me that’s always remembering, oh, that anxiousness isn’t coming from an actual problem I have to deal with out there. That anxiousness is coming from a lot of habitual thinking that I’ve carrying and I’m just sensitive to.
And that’s where the problem is. If we even call that a problem, it’s not a problem. It’s just me becoming more and more aware of that and not feeling bad that I get stuck in that because I can go down that route to why I know the principles. Why can I get out of this thought storm? And that’s just sensitivity to feeling bad about myself for not being able to do something I want to do?
Alexandra: Exactly. And I think one thing that occurs to me too is that I’ve really settled down in those situations because I have finally learned from people like you and from Mavis Karn and all the other teachers that our design will always tell us about the experience that we’re having.
And maybe we can be a bit sensitive to that as well. But the point is, that it’s never going to not tell us what’s going on. We’re never going to be in the dark about what our thinking is doing in us, for lack of a better way to say it. And so, just that, being aware that we are always aware of what’s going on is a real comfort to me.
Now, that doesn’t change. Like if I’m in a really a situation where I’m feeling a lot of anxious thinking, and I’m really feeling sensitive to whatever’s going on, it might not, and it probably doesn’t usually make that experience go away in that very moment.
But even as you said, right off the top, even just knowing a little bit more about what’s happening creates this tiny little gap or space between the observer me, the observer and the experience that I’m having.
So there’s an element of trust here, I guess, is what I wanted to point out that we can trust ourselves; we can trust our design. And then it’s also, like you said, it’s not really it’s not a problem. It’s just a thing that’s happening. That, we’re noticing.
We can trust ourselves; we can trust our design.
Jonelle: It’s something I still keep on learning over and over and over again. And, I’m also seeing more and more about it that this life isn’t about me personally. There’s this nature that’s flowing through me and creating my experience. And I don’t know how it works. And I don’t know why it does the things that it does.
I can find correlations between things and past experiences and why habits might be there. But I think every time I go there, I make this much smaller, then is helpful for me. I think if I keep on going back to maybe what you refer to as trust, but just that there’s more going on here. I don’t need to understand it to function because I have this very simple thing that’s going on.
Like you said, my body is always telling me where I am on that scale between my personal crazy, fearful, insecure, anxious, and depressed, or if I’m light hearted, clear, content, peaceful, and happy, I’m always on that scale somewhere. It’s never to me got anything to do with what’s going on outside circumstances other than I have habits of sensitivity to certain things.
But because of that, my thinking will go in the direction of more tense, the more tense and heavy, and disturbing thinking. And when I’m not paying attention to that stuff, it’s very light. I’ve had all sorts of examples of where I’ve been in very difficult situations. And it’s been not a problem at all, being in a car accident and having an experience of just time slowing down.
I had no fear at all. And it felt like I had five minutes to figure out what to do, when there was no figuring out there was just doing and it was easy.
I had another one where I was held up at knifepoint. And it was the exact same experience where I just knew what to do. I immediately had this idea in my mind of all the things that could possibly happen and what I was going to do based on each scenario, and it was easy, and it was clear.
And yet I’ve had another experience where someone was breaking into the house, and I went into total freak-out mode. I couldn’t even think of the simple thing which was okay, if there are breaking in the one door, you can run out the other door, but that didn’t come to me, there were no scenarios coming to me.
I was just in freak-out mode, not knowing what to do. And that didn’t have anything to do with any of those experiences. Those experiences did create, when there was an action and a reaction by me like there is stuff going on here. But my reaction is has been totally informed by whatever my thinking was doing in that moment.
And sometimes it’s really peaceful and clear, and just I don’t have to think it just does it. And other times I’m just in it, then fearful, and when I’m in that state. I’m just not clear, and I just can’t come up with ideas and I’m scared. And my emotions get really heightened in that way. And for me, there’s nothing I can do about it.
Because the more I tried to change from one to the other, the more I’m resisting what naturally wants to happen through me. And I’m beginning to understand that the thought system doesn’t want resistance to it. So if I don’t engage in it, if I’d happen to notice it, and if I somehow not engage in it, or just allow it to happen, that’s what allows it to do what it needs to do.
And there’s also even a part about where I’m beginning to see it’s okay, more and more, to feel shitty. It’s not something that I don’t have to be in anymore. I’m learning to appreciate that more and more.
I think there’s a beautiful like, it seems like a really beautiful thing to me to be able to sit in any experience, and to just be in it, and do whatever you do within that experience to manage it or not manage it, or to allow it or allow or not allow it and to be okay with that. No matter what
Alexandra: Absolutely. And so that, makes me think of the sensitivity that we have to our moods. I had just very connected to that had experience this morning as I was getting ready. So the last couple of days, I’ve been in a low mood.
And yesterday, I was a bit caught up in what to do about that, how I could fix it, how I could change it, what did it mean about me or about my business, or whatever it was.
Then today, I woke up again, same low mood, and I was in the shower, and I just had this thought that, what if I just let it be, and those words are so easy to say, but it came with such a nice energy.
It was like some weight lifted off my shoulders. And the example I thought it was it’s really bucketing down rain here today, where I live. And it’s the same thing if I decide to be upset about what the weather is doing. It’s that old metaphor that creates a lot of tension in me, but once I just let it be what it was this low mood, I just felt myself relax.
It was such a nice feeling. I think your point about not being able to control this stuff, too, though, is such a good one. Because I didn’t want to be caught up yesterday in the feeling, that was just what was happening. And, I don’t think it was me personally that had the intelligence to not be so serious about that low mood this morning.
I think that it came from somewhere else as well. The life force, whatever it is.
That came from the Universal Intelligence that’s flowing through us.
Jonelle: I don’t know how that happens. And I don’t know what it is. I’ve had all sorts of teachers, including the three principals and others in the spiritual world that my eyes got opened up to after that experience that I’ve enjoyed watching and listening to and they all have explanations, and a lot of it makes sense to me when it probably wouldn’t have made sense before.
But from my own direct experience, I really do often feel like I just don’t know what’s going on. All I know, all I can say like, if you ask me, what can I say for sure? I can say for sure that when I’m in a lower mood, I tend to take things more seriously. And when I’m in a better mood, I tend to take things more lightheartedly and easier, and I’m my mind is clearer. And I navigate life with much more grace.
And when I’m in a lower mood, quite often, I do want to be in a better mood. And my efforts at trying to change I’ve noticed don’t seem to help me get into a better mood. But I’ll still do the effort. I still do the effort, when I do it, even without knowing that I’m trying to do it. And, but there’s just this constant up and down all the time. And from moment to moment, from day to day from period to period.
I’m not feeling too bad today. But some other days, I’m totally consumed like crazy. There’s just a growing appreciation for being okay with all of it. And I can’t even tell anybody how to do that. It’s just an ongoing awareness, isn’t it? It’s like, just like you said when you were in the shower, and no, just let it be, let it go. You’re right. It didn’t come from an efforting. It just came.
Somehow it was allowed to come. I don’t know. That happens, other than this idea of surrender, and but I’ve tried to intentionally surrender. So it’s a mystery. It’s a mystery. It’s a total mystery. But it sure is nice to have some sense of what is going on.
For most of my life, I had no idea that my thinking was creating my experience.
I thought there was just experience and I was experiencing, I had no idea, no sense that there was some stream of personal thought-feeling.
That was actually creating my experience of what happened. And wow, I think that’s a gift. Because it means that that’s the only place. Well, I want to say that it means that the only thing I have to look at then is my thought and feeling. But I don’t want to do that. Because then I go into my crazy, it just means that I don’t have to look at the rest of the world.
I don’t have to fix the rest of the world. I don’t have to change other people’s behavior. I don’t have to have to avoid busy traffic. I don’t have to manage my life in such a way anymore. I can just live my life have these experiences and know that for the most part, I’m getting more aware of being aware of my thinking, and what and how powerful it is.
Alexandra: Well said, I like that very much.
This has been great, Jonelle, it’s just so lovely to chat to you about this stuff. It’s always so fun to explore these things. I just love it.
As we’re wrapping up, why don’t you let people know where they can find out more about you if they’d like to do that?
Jonelle: When I was doing more intentional work of sharing the three principles and just collecting information for myself about the three principles and other stuff that just interested me. I created a website about 10 years ago, and it’s called procrastinationpublications.com.
And it means nothing to most people, but it means something to me because it’s just part of my sense of humor, where I used to write a newsletter for my family. It was always late when I sent it out. And so it was called procrastination. It was published by procrastination publications.
So on that website, it’s got information if anyone wanted to reach out to me for any reason to come contact me as well as tons of 3P resources. The site’s not in the best shape at the moment. But the resources are there. I haven’t added any to them since about 2018. Because by then, the principles were getting so big I couldn’t keep up with everything.
So I just stopped. But everything I got before that is still there, links to all sorts of websites, interesting articles and videos, and things like that. So there’s that website, and I write a blog.
Whenever I’m inspired, sometimes I’ll write three or four months, sometimes none. But they appear on my regular face, my personal Facebook page, as well as on my I have 3P Services Facebook page.
Alexandra: Okay, great. I’ll put links as ever, in the show notes at unbrokenpodcast.com so people can follow up on that.
I think I told you, your website was like the second one that I found when I started? The SEO was really good. Whatever the search terms I was using it found you right away.
Jonelle: Yes. That’s funny. Well, there’s, I have no SEO on there. It’s like the most basic site in the entire world. There’s nothing like it’s I got the cheapest software I could find and the easiest to use that had like, a very limited template on what you could do.
And so I’m not sure but it just it definitely has collected lots of people seeing it because I was getting about I don’t know about anywhere from 1200 to 2000 hits on it a week. So, I had no idea. There’s no way of tracking any of that stuff. And I’m not interested in that. It’s just I guess, nice to know that people use it other than me.
Alexandra: Yes. Well, it was great I loved it. It was a fantastic resource when I was at the beginning of my journey.
Jonelle: You’re very welcome. My pleasure.
Alexandra: Lovely chatting with you today. Jonelle take care.
Jonelle: Lovely to see you too, Alexandra, and thanks for having me in for visit.
Alexandra: My pleasure.