Who We Are Beyond Our Thinking with Jason Shiers

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Jason Shiers was my coach for several months in 2022. It was through our work together that I felt I reached a tipping point in my understanding of why my overeating habit existed and was then able to see it transform and release.

Jason has been through it. He can share so deeply about the transformation that comes from being in this inside-out conversation because he was on a search for years to ease his own suffering and find solutions for his addictions and unwanted habits. It was only when he found the 3 Principles that he found answers to the questions that had been haunting him for years.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• How relentless searching for answers is a sign of our innate well-being
• Using personal development as another part of the search for peace
• How the heaviest thing we ever carry is our thoughts
• The life-changing discovery that we are never broken
• On addiction being part of the body’s innate intelligence
• Why behavioural change is the end result, not where we start when we’re trying to change an unwanted habit
• How is this approach to healing addiction different than the 12 steps?

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

• Jason’s podcast: Misunderstandings of the Mind
• Michael Neill: The Secret to Effortless Change
• Jason’s article about addiction and interview with Dr. Bill Pettit

Transcript of Interview with Jason Shiers

Alexandra: Jason Shiers, welcome to Unbroken.

Jason: Thank you. Excited to be here. I’m wondering what we’re going to talk about. 

Alexandra: I’m excited to have you here. And I’m turning the tables on you because you have your own podcast about this understanding called Misunderstandings of the Mind. I’ll link to that in the show notes.

Why don’t you tell us a bit about your background and how you got interested in the three principles?

Jason: Well, so long story. I’ve  shared it today, in a different way, this morning on another thing that I was on, and it always it gives me a sense of gratitude, to go back sometimes and look at the chaos and the craziness in the things that I did.

My life was very full of chaos, and chaos to me means everything that I could do to avoid myself, in the extremities, with drugs and alcohol, and bodies and weight loss and extreme diets and seeking, searching for myself: money, sex, relationships, everything, gambling, prostitution, anything I could, at the time, just to escape myself.

I started off with a horrific childhood; the tragic loss of my dad when I was young, and then using and medicating, finding a way to cope with my internal world using something externally. I didn’t really care too much what it was, over the years. So, drugs, alcohol, food, relationships, they were all my coping mechanisms. Now, they were are what I used to escape myself.

And then, for many years I was in the field of psychology, as a traditional psychotherapist, and there was more seeking in different ways, but still seeking. Seeking myself unknowingly, in psychological concepts and qualifications and status is because it really, like if this thing here that I called Jason needs to be someone in the world, it has to get things, like things being anything outside of myself, status, money, titles, letters after my name, qualifications, credentials, recognition, I thought I needed those things to be okay.

It was probably one of the reasons why I did so many qualifications in the psychological world, and they were all in service of finding happiness, but none of them contributed to that. I did all those things, I completed them at the end, every time I felt deflated and thought, “Well, maybe it’s the wrong way to another qualification.” Every time it never did what I thought it was going to do. For me, it didn’t give me that endless confidence or real belief in myself or any of those things.

There’s so much to that story, the endless seeking with weight, I know, we’ve talked about this. To the point of having six or seven cosmetic surgeries to change my body on the outside, hoping that somehow it would make me happy on the inside. Even twice waking up in a third world country having been put to sleep and had a surgery. I was thinking about that today, how desperate did I have to be to go to a third world country? Not necessarily a backstreet hospital. It felt pretty safe but it was a cheap hospital to be put to sleep, to have a cosmetic surgery hoping to wake up thin and happy.

That was the extremities that I’m talking about. The lengths that I went to. Committing crime when I was taking drugs. Anything to get more. It was quite extreme my discomfort my dis-ease inside myself, my feelings of not wanting to be me or feeling like I’d been handed a bad hand. I’d been given a bad hand in life. I had this trauma and I was certainly a victim of everything. That’s how I felt.

Inside of us there is a knowing of home, a knowledge of something deeper, something beyond our current level of thinking. It’s always that we just don’t know what it is and that’s the thing that keeps us seeking. It’s our intuition of home, it’s our knowing that there’s something more than the content of our experience, that we’re that we’re escaping from, but we just don’t know that.

No one educates us, Hey, let’s learn about emotions and how the mind works and your spiritual lessons in school. It’s like let’s turn everyone into a little societal robot; get them into school from ages five to 16, and then send them to college and university and turn them out to work for one of the big corporations, or like a conveyor belt. That’s no education. If we taught children who they were, how their mind works, and give them a more emotional maturity, an understanding of themselves, there would probably be a lot more peace and love in the world, and a lot more creativity.

But I didn’t know any of those things, and that’s how it’s tuned out of us as children. It just really is tuned out with that intuition, that knowing of our heart of love of home, of the place of the location, or the source of our well being. And so I was always having this seeking, which is the longing, the knowing and the longing for my for myself but I didn’t know what that was. It just became apparent to treat that, medicate it, with anything I could, from outside of myself.

So in my seeking, after all the therapy qualifications, I turned to personal development. I went through all the Tony Robbins stuff, all his courses. And straightaway, I was like, this is the one. It was the same feeling as when I took drugs for the first time. I found it. I found peace in myself, my mind went quiet. And I took drugs and my body relaxed.

And I found Tony Robbins. I was like, Oh, yes, this is the thing. It wasn’t quite the same experience but it was a similar sort of thinking of finding something, that was important. But pretty quickly, I felt deflated with that. I just felt like something’s not right about this. I started to see this whole hype thing where they got people really hyped up dancing, and then told them, “Just for the next hour, you can buy all my courses at 40% discount at the back of the room. Take your credit card out now.” And I’d be looking at all these people lined up, with their card out. “Yes! Quick, let me let me have the deal.”

And they were going back year after year after year after year for this uplifting feeling, to get that. I stood there one day at two o’clock in the morning, and everyone was writing all these things about beliefs and negative beliefs and positive beliefs and how to have more positive ones. And I said, it just doesn’t work this way. Just doesn’t, and I didn’t do it. I didn’t go back. I’m done with this.

But I still had the seeking, the longing. I still really wanted and was longing for something I didn’t understand. And that’s when I found Michael Neill. I think that I only found him by accident, because he had a video called The Path of Effortless Change. And my life had been anything but effortless. It had been like walking in quicksand. It had been a real struggle, a real tragedy, and so much chaos and darkness, and suicide attempts and different things.

When I heard the word effortless I was like, Please give me something effortless. That sounds the most amazing word I’ve ever heard, because nothing was effortless. I watched the video, but I certainly didn’t have an insight. I  found the video was alright, it was good. There were certain things about it that I got caught up in and found myself drifting out of my thinking about myself, just  being present with and I had never had that experience before. But it didn’t register too much with me at the time.

A year later, I was going to LA and I thought, Oh, I remember that guy, Michael Neill. I’d forgotten about it. I thought he lives in LA, I’m sure he does. So I’m going to look on his website. And I think it was going to a Rich Litvin coach training or something in Santa Monica and I was going back home on the 15th of April. So I looked on Michael Neill’s website and he said, starting on the 17th of April, he had a three day thing. I was thinking, this is just weird, how come two days after I’m there, he’s got this thing’s thing going on. I just had to go. So I changed my tickets, and I went there.

Often when I speak to groups I talk about listening and about presence, at the start, because it was really the presence and the ability to not critically consume information, just absorb and let it waft over me words, without trying to work out if this was the next thing, if it was right, for me, if it was wrong, if it was valuable, if I agreed with it, or not, all the things that the mind the brain wants to do. The onboard computer that we have that wants to lead the way and everything.

Michael said to me, why don’t you just be here and see what happens. And I thought, I’ve done more than 10 years of qualifications and training, the first thing anyone ever did, when they sat in the room, and somebody started, they take their notebook out. I was going to take the notebook out, and I looked around the room, and everyone’s going like this, taking notes down frantically, I could remember this guy, remember that? Cuz if I don’t remember it, it’s not valuable to me. And it’s like, there’s no presence in notetaking, it’s gonna, you’re not there.

I didn’t used to take notes, but actually started to in my psychotherapy training, , because I felt uncomfortable being the only one that didn’t want to take notes. I better get myself a notebook! But it’s not looking like I know what I’m doing because to me, being with people, the presence and the love of that was the the appeal of everything that I did in psychology. It was not about becoming academic, it was nothing to do with that. I hated that part of it.

So anyway, I took my notes, because then I took a lot of notes, and then I got to this training. And, he said to me, you can put your notebook down, so you don’t need it. If you remember anything, if something strikes you, you’ll remember that. It resonates with you. You have a feeling of something, about something that said. And actually, the more present you are, the more likely you are to actually hear something, and the less you’re trying and efforting, using the brain, the mind to critically consume information.

There was a love in the invite, and I guess, knowing what I know now there was a knowing, that something that I didn’t know. Looking back at it, there was a knowing that there’s something for me to see that he’d seen that I hadn’t. That’s often why I offer that invitation to people when I talk to groups now. It’s really about seeing the perfect mental health that’s inside of us, and I hadn’t seen that. I really thought I was broken, damaged. And I also, paradoxically, thought I knew a lot about change, just because I had a lot of letters after my name, but that hadn’t really helped me find any joy, but I still had the qualifications and the credentials.

That’s how I saw the world, it’s like, who had the most, the biggest, the longest, the best, was the most important or had the most to say. That’s just how it looked in the paradigm of life. And in those couple of days, I had this experience where I felt a sense of peace for the first time since I’d taken drugs. I just relaxed inside.

I always say to people, the heaviest thing you’ll ever carry is the weight of your own thoughts about yourself, about where you think you need to be to be okay. It’s the heaviest thing you’ll ever carry. I got to put that down for the first time in years and years of abuse to myself, and the guilt and the shame and the grief and everything that I carried. On top of that being a flawed, broken human who had been told and given so many diagnoses that the list was so long that you couldn’t even read to the end of it. In my own mind, I just thought I would never find peace. I’ll never be okay. I just had the experience of it just disappeared. It was just not a thing anymore.

I realized that what I had been suffering from and trying to escape was the weight of my own thoughts about myself. Nothing more. There was not a real thing that was wrong with me. I wasn’t a flawed individual, broken, damaged, any of those things. They were just thoughts that I thought daily, for as long as I could remember about myself.

Just the fact that I thought them every single day didn’t make them any more real than whether I thought them once or not. That’s just what I believed about myself.

That was my long winded answer to how did I find the principles. That was my introduction by Michael Neill to seeing deeper, to being truly willing to look inwardly for the answers versus outwardly, which is all I’ve done my whole life before that.

Alexandra: Thank you for sharing that. It is such a great story. I’ve heard you tell it before, in a couple of different places, and I’m always struck by, well, I just feel so much empathy for how much suffering you experienced. That’s the first thing that occurs to me. So thank you for sharing that with us. 

Now I’m going to quote you back to you. I remember once on one of our calls, you said, addiction is always the result of a busy mind. And that was huge for me. I remember I wrote it down, and I put it on a piece of paper here in my office. I’d love if you could talk a little bit about that, because it was so it was just so profound for me.

Why is addiction is always the result of a busy mind?

Jason: I love talking about this, because it just makes so much sense to me that the body-mind, as we are, as humans, is completely intelligent. It knows it can manage everything. It does everything by itself; heals itself, digests, you put food in your mouth, you don’t have to do your digestion, you don’t have to work with any of the other systems, they just work by themselves, you break your leg, it heals, you cut your finger, it heals. Everything works that way.

I was in a talk this morning, and I was saying, rather than thinking about the pathologize-ation, if that’s the right word, of normal human response to adversity, as something in us that’s broken – that’s just an idea we’ve been given. If you think about it addiction is innate intelligence, and it makes sense, because everything else is intelligent about the body-mind system, it works by itself. If we’re creating or having an internal disease, it makes complete sense that we find a solution to it.

For example, the body-mind doesn’t know any difference between prescription drugs and street drugs. You can take heroin, or you can take benzos, or opiates, I get from the doctor, my body is still experiencing the same thing, it does not give a shit where it comes from. It’s the same way that there’s no moral or social or any values in what my body does to escape from itself. It could be compulsively eating. It could be compulsorily having sex, taking drugs, doing anything; smoking, crack cocaine, drinking alcohol, whatever it is, it’s but the system is still working intelligently.

You can almost describe it like a pressure cooker, and addiction is the valve on the pressure cooker. I say that the presssure keeps building up and building up in the pressure cooker, like thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about thoughts, thoughts about me, thoughts about the world, about everyone else, what people think of me what I think of me when I think of them. If there’s no valve of release, then from a human perspective, what’s the next option? It’s probably suicide or psychosis, from a mental health perspective.

So it’s great that the body-mind works intelligently, and it finds a way to cope with its internal experience. It’s just a different way of seeing what I call the normal human response to adversity. I had an traumatic, dramatic and tragic experience, and I found a way to cope with it, it makes complete sense.

Alexandra: Absolutely. And you touched on it earlier, but all that seeking and longing that you experienced, it struck me that that’s part of our perfect design. We know somehow instinctively that there’s a way to feel at peace.

I said earlier, I felt so much empathy for the suffering that caused you to keep looking but at the same time, and I experienced a lot of that as well, at the same time, it’s the thing trying to bring us home.

Jason: I sometimes refer to addiction as the lost man’s way to enlightenment. I have empathy for anyone suffering for sure. And I don’t mean to make light of it. If anyone listening is really struggling, but in hindsight, it always looks different.

Looking back and thinking, not that I’m grateful for my loss or any of those things, but now it has happened, and I can see the gift in it too. I can see the gift in, in where it made me look. I can see the gifts in so many areas of my life in my presence as a parent, in my presence with people, in so many things in the opening of my heart to life.

I can see so many gifts in that, but like you said, if I if those things, if the suffering hadn’t been how it was, I may well have just had whatever a mediocre life is, I don’t know, something different for sure. But I’m grateful for what I’ve got.

Alexandra: Exactly. I was reading an article yesterday. There’s a link from your website. And it was an an interview with Dr. Bill Pettit.

You mentioned in the article that changing behaviour is the last step in addiction recovery. Could you share more about that?

Jason: I think that’s quite an old interview with a long article that I wrote about addiction treatment coming out of work for. It’s part of in my book as well, there’s a chapter in my book about behavioral change, because a lot of, especially cognitive focused psychology, and so on, and even in psychodynamic and approaches, there’s a focus on you have to change your behaviour.

You have to do more of this, do more of that. Just take yourself in a different direction, be kind to yourself, physically don’t do certain things, and so on. And it’s like, that’s impossible for anyone suffering. I just used to feel so, so frustrated, when anyone would ever suggest to me. “Have you tried just not doing it or just doing something different?” It’s like, if you knew what it was like to be me, the obsession of the mind, and the compulsion of the body. When you’re in that  cycle, it’s just too intense, you can’t not do it, you can’t just change.

And the thing is, is that the way that I wrote about it in my book, and in the article is that behavioural change is the end result. It’s not where you start, it’s never gonna be where you start, because the behaviour is in service of coping with the internal internal disease. It’s your coping mechanism. It’s like, someone’s like saying, hey, stop coping. It’s all inbuilt. It’s habitual, it’s part of my misunderstanding of myself, it’s what I need to do to be okay. I can’t just stop.

Saying that, people can stop for a little minute. You can go on a diet for two days, or three days or something. And if food is your thing and then three days in, you probably like find yourself craving, longing, eating things you don’t want to eat. Or you can not take drugs for a couple of days sometimes, depending on what the drugs are, but you’ll find yourself going back to it or jumping from one thing to another to another.

So the behaviour is always the end result. It’s never anything to do with the problem. It’s another form of our coping mechanism. So it’s always going to be futile to try and like I said, you might find little moments of freedom, but they’re not going to help you look at the core issue, which is your misunderstanding of yourself. Your misunderstanding of the source of well being and misunderstanding of who you are. That’s where you need to look not at like what you’re doing to cope with your internal disease.

Alexandra: I love that. It’s interesting because as a culture, we were taught that so prevalently to start with the behaviour. All the techniques and strategies and diets and everything else. That’s where we think we should begin.

If we don’t begin there, if someone’s brand new to this understanding, where would they start?

Jason: I’ll get to that. But it’s about what you said, it’s an important point what you said, it’s like, just because there’s whole billion dollar industry built around changing your body on the outside, losing weight, going on diets, finding the right supplements to support your data, and all this stuff. A lot of money and a lot of identity involved just in that one, as an example, addiction treatment is another one where there’s a lot involved in the pathologizing of normal human response to adversity. So they’ve taken a problem and provided a solution. A problem that isn’t really a problem, in a way, it’s perpetuated the idea of us being broken and flawed individuals.

So that’s the first thing important point to know is just because there’s a whole industry around something doesn’t make it right. Some people do need just a little bit of nutritional advice. They’re not really escaping, they’re suffering, isn’t it a bit of direction, but you can’t find the line of what’s in between that.

Where you would start, is the first thing is not always, but quite often people have had some life experience that feels sticky, repetitive. “I keep getting into the same relationship, I don’t know what it is. It’s a different person, but I have the same outcome.” Or “I keep trying to go on diets to change my body, because I’m not happy with myself. And somehow I don’t last more than three days.” Or “I keep gambling away my mortgage payment,” or whatever it is. There’s some feeling of something not being right.

That’s when people start to question, like, well, do I get external help? Where do I go? And maybe people have been getting external help for a long period of time. And then they’re having more of that, I’ve been having that for ages, and I’ve just been putting up with it.

But we’ve always been focused on the outside so the first place to always look where I want to work with people is, let’s look inside ourselves instead of outside ourselves. Not to what we’re doing, not to the way you eat, or the way you behave, or the drugs you take, or any of those things, let’s look at what’s happening inside, what’s happening inside. Right now.

How much do I know myself? How much do I know? Who am I? It’s not my name, my age, my job title, my status, my parent or my relationship status? Let’s strip all those things away, and start with that question like, who am I?

Alexandra: Oh, that’s lovely. I’ve never heard anybody phrase it that way before. That’s great.

The other thing I wanted to mention, too, is that that same article talks about how we tend to look in the past for answers. But what it said was finding a new way to move forward and experience life allows us to live at a different level of consciousness, which I loved.

I remember, I think it was on a webinar with Christian McNeil and Barbara Sarah Smith, you talked about how when you were having your psychotherapy training, that’s the paradigm, is to look into the past and dig up all that stuff. And you talked about how it was making you feel worse and worse and worse.

I’d love if you could talk about that idea of instead of looking at the past, moving forward and experiencing a new level of consciousness.

Jason: I use the words level of consciousness loosely, because I don’t know if there are any levels of consciousness, but it appears as a, what you might call a concession, something it appears that our level of consciousness can be low when we’re caught up in our mind and our thinking. So I just want to clear that up.

When we’re very busy minded, caught up triggered or something, we might not see so clearly. You might call that a lower level of consciousness. But what I’m really referring to when I say that is that I’m caught up in my mind, I’m caught up in my thinking, and the past stuff.

We’re all a byproduct of our past. I’m not saying the past is completely irrelevant, but it’s really important from my point of view to understand what this conversation is pointing to, before I even consider the past because from my current perspective of being a suffering separate, flawed individual, if I start looking at my past, the only thing I’m going to do is find more problems to resolve, feel more pain, feel more suffering, feel more darkness.

I’m further creating cement in this identity that I think I am, and that’s a horrific thing to do for anyone. It’s not a useful thing to do for anyone. You don’t get a new relationship with the past, but it’s still part of you, part of your whole beliefs, even unconscious beliefs and so on, will be byproducts of the past. I’m not saying that they’re not. But the most important thing you can know is that you’re not that you’re not your past. It’s not about getting a new relationship with the past, it’s about learning to live in the present moment.

And it’s about seeing who you are beyond your thinking about the past. When you’ve seen that, when you’ve experienced a palpable shift in your reality, when it feels like, I know, I’m okay, no matter what, I know I get lost in my experience from time to time, but there’s a part of me that just knows that I’m not this flawed, broken individual that needs fixing. In fact, I’m fine, exactly as I am, even when I’m not, I am.

When you really know that, then you might want to look at how some past traumas or adversities show up in your body, your bodily sensations, you’ve no longer got the story of being a broken floor, damaged, individual needs to fix themselves, but you’re just still having an experience of the moment. You’re in a social situation, your body contract, you feel this anger raise up inside you, and you feel all dark, and it triggers you into something, you can you can look at that.

At that time, I think when I wrote that article, maybe four years ago, I hadn’t seen this, I hadn’t seen it. So my own understanding is constantly evolving, and, via myself, via my own realizations about myself, and what always brings me closer to my heart to being more loving, to being more connected to life and to people. Because I’d originally taken on this concept of the 3 Principles and not really seen so much of what it was pointing to, the beauty of the human design, but more got lost in another psychological concept.

At that level, it can be used as a spiritual bypass. It’s almost like I’m a human without a body and I don’t want to feel my feelings, because I’ve misunderstood something that’s been taught to me. I’ve taken it the wrong way, adapted it to find this spiritual bliss that I think is on the other side of something that I am. So, that puts a little bit of information around how I see it now versus what I saw at the time of writing that, but it still makes complete sense.

The litmus test is if I really think I’m broken, damaged, and so on, looking into the past, via some sort of therapy, or traditional psychological process is probably going to bring me more pain. But if I’m living a joyful life, I’m content and I know who I am, and I’m pretty much okay, most of the time and these things show up. It’s okay to be able to learn to be with my body with whatever is springing to me in the present moment.

Alexandra: That’s an interesting contrast and comparison. I like hearing that.

I was wondering if you could compare your 12 Step experience to this understanding. And I guess what I’m asking is what differences do you see? What similarities do you see?

I didn’t know until very recently that Bill W., who co-founded the 12 step program, had an enlightenment experience or a big insight. And then, from what I understand, he created the 12 steps to reverse engineer, to help people to have that same experience. So as we’re wrapping up, I’d love you to touch on that. I think it might be interesting for people.

Could you please compare your 12 Step experience to this understanding? What differences do you see? What similarities do you see?

Jason: Yeah, he did. You’re exactly right. If you read about Bill’s experience, he had a moment similar to Syd Banks. He’d been exploring all sorts of stuff, psychedelics, Jungian shadow work and different things. So the thing with the 12 steps is that Bill had his experience, he tried his best to pass it on to people.

The 12 steps are what I call the recipe. If you imagine a cake recipe and method, the list of things you need, and how to do it. And the method has gone through million people. It like what Chinese whispers are. Everyone’s played that game. By the time you get to five people, the story has completely changed, it’s gone. So you can imagine the method going through a million people across country to country group to group year to year. Who knows if what people are teaching today is what Bill really meant?

But the thing is, you can’t argue with the size of the 12 step fellowship, the value. And for me, it saved my life. And a lot of my friends. So I can’t say anything bad about that.

In my most gentle way, why I’d say the 12 steps, is a better ally than the one I was telling myself before I went there, it was a different belief to adopt. And it served a purpose for the time. But I do hear a lot of wisdom in the 12 steps. I just think people don’t know what it is. They really have adopted this belief of this unexplainable phenomena. What I was told, when I was so naive, when I went to rehab, you’ve got a disease, it’s unexplainable. You need to do these things to be okay and you’ve got to find the spiritual or higher power.

My whole 20 odd years and 12 steps, I was asking myself, and other people, what is the spiritual awakening? I didn’t really know, I had no clue. And no one had ever really pointed me to any of those things. So it served a great purpose. It kept me clean, and I went on some beautiful adventures, had all sorts of experience, met some great friends. I went in prisons, institutions did all sorts of stuff with the 12 steps. It was always something I was passionate about.

Saying all that there was for me, there was always still that longing inside of me for something, to know something more, to know something deeper about myself. And, if you think about one of the things I said, and I hear quite often in 12 steps is all I wanted to do was to build on my whole life, and I found something here that I belong to. So I cling to that belonging, feeling part of it, because it qualifies my identity, it gives me an identity because I’m identity less. I think that I’m Jason, flawed individual. I don’t think that I’m part of the oneness, the wholeness of life, the spiritual energy, that we’re all part of, I don’t think that I think I’m a flawed separate individual.

So that belonging to a club, feels like a great thing. It’s like, boy, you could look, you could flip that on its head and say, Well, the fact that I longed to belong to a club full of people that consider themselves damaged, tells me that there’s something with what I know today, missing from my understanding of myself, because when I’m connected to who I am, when I know who I am, when I’m willing to just be with my experience, when I see that I’m part of the spiritual intelligence behind life, I don’t need to belong to any club.

I see that I’m part of the human race I’m part of connected to everyone. So yeah, I don’t want this to sound bad but the tool set is great, served a huge purpose. It saves a lot of lives. It’s a beautiful experience. And many people feel evangelical fanatical about it, and it’s like, great, if that works for you do that. I never advise people not to do it. And also be open to being something more.

Alexandra: Well said. That was great. Thank you so much.

We’re almost out of time so why don’t you tell us let us know where we can find out more about you and your work.

Jason: The easiest place to find me is my coaching site: WideWorldCoaching.com or like you said, listen to the podcast. There’s many beautiful conversations.

A friend just contacted me yesterday, we’ve been friends for even before I started the podcast, and he had never listened to it until the last couple of months. He just said to me, I’ve listened to all your podcasts. He said, I really like these three principles thing that sounds really good, and it’s like, Oh, wow, that was because there was some of them have been a few years old now. It’s like, but there’s still such value. Conversations, where we have open and beautiful. Looking at what’s true about life and what isn’t and what’s true about suffering and individuality and who we are and how the mind works and different things like that. And, if one person hears something that’s valuable, I think that’s always the most important thing, you know.

Alexandra: Yes. They are beautiful conversations. I’ve enjoyed so many of them. Well, thank you, Jason. This has been amazing. Thank you for chatting with me today.

Jason: Thank you. Take care. Bye bye.

Feature image photo by Denis Degioanni on Unsplash

Transcribed by https://otter.ai