Writing Out from Under the Shadow of Polygamy with Maggie Rayner

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Maggie Rayner is the author of In Polgamy’s Shadow. She grew up in a branch of the Mormon church that was not polygamist, but that does not mean that polygamy didn’t have an effect on her family. As Maggie shares in this interview, among the many other challenges she experienced as a Mormon child, she and one of her sisters had a very close call with being recruited into the polygamous community of Bountiful, BC in the 1960s.

They avoided that fate, but couldn’t avoid the other impacts that the church had on their lives. Eventually, as an adult, Maggie was able to write her book and, as you’ll hear, the writing process played a big part in the healing process.

You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below.

Show Notes

• Growing up hungry and being put in dangerous situations
• How writing helped deal with the shame instilled by a childhood lived in secret
• Beginning with a factual article about polygamy in British Columbia
• Finding a writing group that was supportive and encouraging
• Getting over the mental hurdles required to tell this story
• Finding a writing practice that worked
• How to know when a book is ready to go from draft to the editing phase
• Gathering endorsements from those respected in the field
• How speaking about the book was also part of the healing process
• Being of service as part of the purpose for writing a memoir

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

• Maggie Rayner’s book In Polygamy’s Shadow

Transcript of Interview with Maggie Rayner

Alexandra Amor: Maggie Rayner, welcome to Creative Alchemy.

Maggie Rayner: Thank you.

Alexandra: It’s so good to see you. Thank you for being here with me today.

To begin, please let my listeners know a little bit about your background and how you grew up in the Mormon Church.

Maggie: My parents were mainstream Mormons. When I was a toddler, they moved from Southern Alberta to the west coast of British Columbia. They were very devout. With being mainstream Mormons, they didn’t practice polygamy, but they believed when they died, they would practice it in the afterlife.

I did have ancestors who were polygamists. So I grew up hearing stories from my father about his two grandmothers and the acrimony that existed between them. It was part of my life, hearing about it, knowing about it, that kind of thing. My parents lived their lives in service to the Mormon Church, so that impacted, my entire life.

As a child, my upbringing, I was one of seven surviving children. Mormons are instructed to at the time, were instructed to have as many children as they could. My first 10 years were more free than my, teenage years because we lived in Gibsons, and while my parents were continuously following all the rules of Mormonism, that meant that they had to go to Vancouver for services, conferences, that kind of thing, with us living in Gibsons.

I had a carefree childhood, roamed the forests. The ocean was close by, beaches, bluffs. That part was great.

When I was 10, we moved to Richmond, to an organized structure, regular, hours-long church meetings. Everything was geared toward service. And the books that I was allowed to read were censored, what I was allowed to wear.

My parents didn’t drink tea or coffee or alcohol, so I grew up knowing that wasn’t allowable for a Mormon. When I was 11, the fundamentalist Mormons from Bountiful here in the province visited our mainstream congregation on the hunt for young brides.

My oldest sister was 16 at the time, and an older polygamist who had a number of wives was trying to court her, and he did ask my father’s permission to marry her.

Fortunately for her and for me, he said no. But watching that happen was a significant experience for me.

When I was about 12, I started to notice how unequal the Mormon Church was when it came to women. I had jumped through all the hoops, and I was good at doing what I was told because there was always the threat of punishment if I wasn’t obedient.

So even though I jumped through the hoops, and I’d had 10 years of freedom, I didn’t have an ingrained sense of any testimony for the Mormon Church. But what I did have, and internalized, was the story of the church, the origins of the religion, the history, and so on. That was, and the church was this huge thing in my life that determined everything.

Fortunately, I went to public school, and I did get to see that there were other ways of living, and many different belief systems. In my mid-teens, I started to become really aware of how my choices were limited by my parents, and I realized if I wanted a life or to make any decisions of my own, that I would have to leave home and leave the Mormon Church.

So the day after I graduated from high school, that’s what I did.

Alexandra: For our listeners, can you tell us what testimony is? I’m not familiar with that word.

Maggie: Oh, I’m sorry. A testimony is a belief in the faith, and the doctrine of the church. A loyalty to the leaders of the church, to unquestioning obedience to whatever they, their instructions were for how the members were to live.

And it meant that you would give your life to defend the church.

Alexandra: Okay. Got it. Thank you. And then, for our listeners’ information, you and I are friends, so I know a little bit, and I’ve read your book, of course. Because Creative Alchemy is about the healing properties of creativity and how it can help people out when they’re, they’ve experienced trauma:

Can you give us a little overview of the trauma you experienced in your teenage years because of the church?

Maggie: Trauma was ongoing. Yes. It was. There was no room for individuality or personhood or having any personal needs.

My father was highly respected, but at home, he was a violent man, so I learned quickly to be accommodating, to fade into the background, to figure out how I was going to avoid being punished. I became a robot. So while I was able to, as I grow older, able to avoid the violence, I witnessed it in my, toward my younger siblings, and that was disturbing for me.

I did my best to help them and protect them, but I wasn’t always successful. So, a lot of traumatic experiences when I reflect on it. One experience, I escaped from a situation that my parents had placed me in by sending me to, babysit a, for a children in a home where the wife was hospitalized and the man who needed to go to work. They needed someone to come and live in.

I hadn’t wanted to go, but I had no choice. And, as soon as I got there and was alone with the man, I knew that I was in danger. So fortunately I was able to call home, and my older sister was visiting. She was back at home. And I simply said, “I need to come home.” That was impactful for me because I knew how much danger I was in and, fortunately I was able to get myself out of that.

That epitomizes my upbringing in my having to get myself out of dangerous situations because my parents either put me in them or they were not there-… To offer protection.

Alexandra: I can’t remember if I read this in your book or if we’ve just talked about it too.

The financial impact on your family was really heavy. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Maggie: As far as trauma, they paid their tithing, they did what their leaders told them to.

They were also asked for a lot of donations. Now the trauma part was when you have a large family, everything costs. I was often hungry when I was a child. I often did not have proper clothing to wear, that kind of thing. But what the thread throughout was always being hungry, never having enough food to eat.

Not having regular food that the kids at school had.

Alexandra: Because your parents were giving away such a huge percentage of what they earned to the church.

Maggie: Yes. Besides tithing, other donations. I think they had more children than they could afford to take care of.

Alexandra: Seven is a lot. That’s nine mouths to feed. That’s a lot of food.

Okay, so we’re going to fast-forward a little bit now.

When did it first occur to you that you might like to tell your story in book format?

Maggie: I married, had children, gone back to school, and I became involved in an activist network, to lobby the government to take action on what was happening in Bountiful, for the women and children in that polygamous community.

I’d been going to writing groups, and one of the articles that I wrote, I just sat down and wrote it very… I didn’t even give it any thought. Sent it off to the Vancouver Sun, which was a local, larger local paper at the time, and they published. I was thrilled they published it.

I’d entitled it Polygamy and Me: Growing Up Mormon. So, and I thought because I was so familiar with the history and background that everybody knew what everything was about in the Mormon Church, and I found out that wasn’t the case. Readers of that article that knew me started to ask me questions about it and that was the beginning motivation for writing my story and my experience of Mormonism.

Alexandra: Before that article, had you written previously, not necessarily related to Mormonism, but any kind of writing?

Maggie: I had never wanted to be a writer. I had done a little bit of reporting writing for the arts councils that I’d been involved with, just short little articles, but that was it.

I did not know how to write.

Alexandra: Did you write more articles or when did you take the leap into thinking you would write a book?

Maggie: After my article in the Sun came out, then I thought, “Okay, I have to learn how to write.” And what do I want to say? And so that was really the beginning.

I joined a writing group. Looking back, I laugh now. They were fabulous, but, they, I, they were very let’s just say they were very helpful. I needed a lot of help. So that’s how that sort of came about. They were encouraging. Yeah. Great.

Alexandra: Were there any mental blocks that you needed to get over, to give yourself permission to write this story?

Maggie: First thing I decided to do was that I would use a pen name. And that using a pen name, I was totally free to say what I wanted and be respectful to my family and not violate their privacy. So the pen name was the beginning.

I had no idea how I was going to deal with the amount of shame I felt, even in thinking about writing about what had happened in my childhood.

I never had, until I wrote the article for the Sun. No one outside the family knew that I had been raised Mormon, that my family was Mormon, that I’d had polygamous ancestors. It was not even something I would ever consider sharing. So bit by, step-by-step, I had to work on my feelings of shame about that.

Alexandra: Can you say more about that? That’s a pretty deep emotion and feeling, shame. And shame rather versus embarrassment. Shame is about who we are rather something that we’ve done.

Do you know where that shame came from?

Maggie: My feelings of wanting to have a normal childhood.

There were things that I couldn’t talk about that happened in my family. And then the Mormon Church as well, as part of my upbringing, there were so many secrets in the church, that it was based on secrecy.

Alexandra: How did you work through that shame?

Was it the writing itself that helped you, or did you do other things?

Maggie: The writing, yes. The writing, the, encouragement and acceptance of the writing group. I was still very low-key about talking about what I was writing about to anyone in my friend circle even.

Alexandra: So only the writing group really knew what was going on?

Maggie: Yes.

Alexandra: Anything else that you did to work through that shame?

Maggie: I think I just handled it a step at a time And when I would do a basic draft, which was very safe then I would let it sit for a little while, and then I’d feel a little more comfortable with it, and then I might elaborate a little more. And so gradually, bit by bit, I was able to overcome my fear of being exposed.

With the writing group and with the different drafts that I did, there was lots of opportunities to go over and over things. So to go over something that it was initially, very shameful to me. After a lot of repetition, it neutralized it. But I think the acceptance, too, from my writing group.

Alexandra: Amazing. It’s so fortunate that you found that group, and that they were supportive and positive and encouraging. Because it does happen that writers can enter into a group and get a bit squashed. Because we’re so, fragile right at the very beginning.

That little bud of creativity is just coming out of the earth, and it can get squished so easily.

Maggie: I think, too, it was helpful to have written the Sun article. That was more an opinion piece with some factual background of my life.

So that gave me a bit of confidence that this maybe was not such a horrible thing after all. People were interested. People wanted to know.

And then I think it really came down to, through this process, my realizing I was the only one that had experienced this, and this was my story, and this was who I was and what had shaped me.

So it was, again, it was a process step by step.

Alexandra: I can see that that article opened the, could open the door for you or how it did because, as you say, it was factual, and you were presenting some history and giving some context for people who might not know what was going on.

And that’s a little bit at arm’s length from your own personal story, right? But it’s connected. It does feel like that was a real door opening for you. That’s amazing. Good for you.

I want to ask one question before I move on.

How long did it take? From writing the article and then getting the idea to write the book and then having a finished draft, what length of time are we looking at?

Maggie: Three and a half years.

Alexandra: That seems reasonable.

Were there any challenges, creative challenges that you encountered along the way writing that book?

Maggie: The ‘how to write’ books had always talked about a schedule, having a schedule. And those authors had it all down and, they had a regular daily writing schedule. That didn’t work for me. Once I got started on something- time disappeared. I was unable to do anything on a regular basis.

Once I started on one of my topics, I worked on it until I had a rough draft. That could take all day. That could mean eating dry cereal at dinnertime. Those kinds of things.

Alexandra: Oh, that’s really interesting, because that’s such a trope in writing that you must do it every day and do it for a certain length of time.

But you’re saying you were able to just find the discipline when you needed it and write for as long as you needed to.

Maggie: Yes. And then I would come up, take a break from it because it was an emotional experience. Going back, into that, into my upbringing was really emotional. So I would write, and then I would take a break.

And then when I felt ready again, then I would start again. And by that time what I’d written before had time to settle and time for me to emotionally deal with it.

Alexandra: There was some processing going on.

When you say you would leave it for a while, would that be days or weeks?

Maggie: No, that would just be a couple of days downtime. I would be out, go out and have some fun.

Alexandra: You shared it with the writing circle as you were going along?

Maggie: Yes.

Alexandra: Did you share the idea even or some of the writing with your family?

Maggie: Certainly not with my siblings or my parents.

My children knew that I was in a writing group, that I was writing about it, but not in any detail. I would occasionally mention to them that I was, writing about it, and they were encouraging, because they remembered getting Mormon tapes in the mail. So they knew what I was about.

Alexandra: But they weren’t raised Mormon?

Maggie: No.

Alexandra: And then when you got closer to feeling you were ready to publish what was that like?

How did you decide you were done? How did it feel like it was complete?

Maggie: Oh, that’s a good question. I’d come full circle from my upbringing. My last few chapters were a summary of those years afterwards to, until I wrote the book. So, I’d just come full circle. And that had to do as well with my father had passed on and my mother had passed on, and I was ready to get closure on that time in my life.

Alexandra: What did you do? You’ve got this manuscript. And it’s raw. Now what?

Maggie: Yeah. Now what? I have to say thank you for encouraging me. You were pivotal. Very much so. I asked you to be one of my beta readers, and a couple of other people that I trusted, and that was huge, so that took it to the next stage.

And then I found an editor and that was the next step. And when she gave me the go-ahead that she was pleased with this final product that I’d produced, then I contacted Craig Jones, who was a lead prosecutor here for the attorney general in BC.

He had, worked on the polygamy reference case, about Bountiful, about establishing that polygamy in Canada was illegal under the criminal code.

I contacted him, sent a letter, introduced myself and said, “Would you be willing to take a look at my manuscript and see if it’s something you could endorse?”

Alexandra: Wow. Brave.

Maggie: I was really just pleased to be done. I felt strongly about the subject. I felt very strongly about anything I could do to raise awareness about polygamy, that it was still happening here.

Certainly in BC. I was aware that in other places, too, particularly in Utah, Idaho, Arizona. That kind of thing. So I sent it off, the letter. He said, “Send it to me.” He said, “I’ve got a case I’m, working on, but how soon do I need to…” I said, “No rush at all. Just let me know.”

I was delighted when he got to it very quickly actually, and said he’d read it. Yes, he could definitely endorse it, and he sent me a blurb about it, and he said, “Use it as you would.”

That further gave me confidence that I was ready to publish.

Alexandra: Was there anything about the other beta readers?

Was there any feedback you got that you disagreed with or that was challenging for you? It’s been a while now, but can you remember?

Maggie: Actually, I didn’t find anything challenging. I found it more informative and helpful if they had writen comments. Most of all they would say, stuff like, “Oh, I don’t understand this.”

Or, “Can you explain more about this?” Or, oh, some of the things it was like, “Oh, I can’t believe that happened to you.” That kind of thing.

So it was more helpful and positive, and very beneficial to me.

Alexandra: I know now you tend to read memoir. Right?

Maggie: Yeah.

Alexandra: Were you reading memoirs then? Were you a natural memoir fan?

Maggie: Yes, I love memoirs. I love people’s lives. I find it a learning experience as well, and I’m interested in people’s faith crisis. Their life transitions, that kind of thing. So yes, memoir, reading has always appealed to me much more than nonfiction.

Alexandra: Ultimately, and we’ve already touched on this a little bit, but it sounds like your book, which is called In Polygamy’s Shadow, did have a hand in a healing process for you.

Maggie: Oh, yes. Without a doubt. This may sound cheesy, but it’s coming out of the darkness.

Coming to terms with this is part of my life. This is who my family was. This is the impact that the Mormon church and teachings and rules has had on my family and on me.

Alexandra: You took ownership of that story.

Maggie: Yes. That was very valuable for me.

I was still saying the word Mormon quietly. Now I say it out loud. But it wasn’t something that I was talking a lot about with a lot of people. But in writing the memoir, I had the opportunity to do a lot of talking about it, a lot of talking about my subject, a lot of presenting.

And that in itself contributed to my acceptance of who I was, the challenges that I had, and being okay with that. And more, I think, the focus, I was able to put the focus on myself versus on what other people were going to think about me.

Alexandra: Yeah, worrying about judgments.

What I’m hearing is that there were two big parts of this healing process. One was the writing. And you touched on the value in the iterative process, like having to polish things and write them again and again, that that was actually healing.

And then what I heard you say just now was that then once the book was published, actually speaking about it, and you did a great job. I was always so impressed about how you pitched yourself to different places and gave talks, and you’re part of the, human library, at the Vancouver Public Library. And all different kinds of stuff like that.

That was healing as well, is what you’re saying.

Maggie: Yes, because, oh, for many reasons. Because it was something people were interested in hearing and knowing about and learning about. And again, I felt like I was contributing to raising awareness. I always thought that whoever needed to hear my experience, hear my message would.

One of the hidden positives of Mormonism is that as a young child, you’re taught to speak in public. That is all part of it. You’re taught to give talks in Sunday school. You’re taught to be in front of groups. I hadn’t really realized how helpful that was when it came to talking about my In Polygamy’s Shadow.

But at the same time, I felt really strongly about it, and so that also was a factor.

Alexandra: Being passionate about that. What I love about memoirs like yours is that it’s not just about you, it’s about serving a greater cause.

You’ve talked about the legal battle that was going on about Bountiful. You were trying to raise awareness about that. And I think, too, my experience of you has always been you’ve been trying to erase raise awareness about the damaging effect of such strong doctrines, such a hierarchical organization, and especially its impact on women.

I love the parallel of this, your personal story combined with the service of getting these messages out.

And obviously, that was a conscious choice on your part.

Maggie: Yes, it was. That was my intention from the beginning. When I was writing it, I did try to keep it clear, simple, and straightforward. That was definitely strategic on my part.

Alexandra: I think those are the best kinds of memoirs. Just in my personal opinion, when they help other people.

One interesting thing I want to touch on is that you wrote a follow-up book. And you based it, or you had journals of your dad’s.

Tell us briefly about that book. Borrowed Trousers is the title.

Maggie: Yes. Now, that was more a project, before my mother passed on. She entrusted me with my father’s Mormon missionary journal. I certainly didn’t know it existed. I don’t know if any of my siblings did either. And I really wanted to honor that, what his experience had been.

But it was less emotional, more of a project. I did write the introduction and the epilogue. But other than that, I kept it as closely, well, as I could. I did do a bit of editing about, when it came to some racial, descriptions and stuff. That’s the only thing I edited. So it was just sort of a completion for me in wanting, again, to raise awareness about what a Mormon mission exacted, so to speak, from, a missionary.

What rules Mormons or, missionaries were under, the sacrifices that they were required to make, the differences between the experience of a missionary of someone who came from an affluent family and those that didn’t. Because Mormon missionaries were and are expected to pay for their own missions to market the Mormon Church.

So that probably gives you an idea of my thoughts about that. So it was more of a project. I did enjoy learning what went on behind closed doors, so that was great, and really that expanded my understanding as well that I, that hadn’t had that before. And again, it was my intent was to inform.

I don’t promote it in the same way as I do In Polygamy’s Shadow. But it is a historical record of the time and era and the religion. Really important in, for that reason, I think.

Alexandra: Now, you mentioned that your dad had passed away, before you started writing In Polygamy’s Shadow, and then your mom passed away.

Was that before you published?

Maggie: Just before.

Alexandra: There’s a really poignant section at the very back of the book about you going to visit your mom, and it comes to mind every once in a while. It’s just a beautiful story. But very poignant, very sad.

What did your siblings think about the book, In Polygamy’s Shadow, once it was published?

Maggie: Two of my siblings were appreciative that I had written it. And they said, “You’ve nailed it. This is what this is what happened in our family.” They’re no longer practicing Mormons. Nor, do they have any affiliation with the extended family practicing Mormons.

So yeah, two were great. The two siblings were great. I was delighted that my granddaughters were very enthusiastic about it. That was interesting to me.

Alexandra: Wow, that’s lovely.

And your what about your children?

Maggie: My son was very pleased that I had written it, and he shared it with his friends. One of my youngest daughter was very enthusiastic as well. My oldest daughter was enthusiastic about it and but each one has had their own experience.

So it’s all relative to what their experience is, and also whether they want to deal with the fact that this is their history as well.

Alexandra: That’s such a good point. It doesn’t end with you. It carries on.

Maggie: I think with my kids, yeah, it is part of their family history.

Alexandra: As we just start to wrap up where do you find creative expression in your life now?

Maggie: I’m still writing. I do bits and pieces. I have dabbled in poetry a bit, but that’s really not where I want to put my energy. I have a number of short pieces that I’ve written about my sailing racing, my life on Bowen Island, more on a light side.

I’m enjoying that, but it’s still memoir. I’m contemplating doing something more serious. I don’t know whether I have that much motivation to do it, but what I’ve discovered is that, yes, I have moved on, but I still have relational behaviors as a result of my programming, my upbringing, and the way that I learned to navigate my world.

So that fascinates me now. That’s kind of the next step. Whether I’ll do anything serious about it, I don’t know. I’m just wanting to have fun with my writing.

Alexandra: I’m happy to hear. And of course, I’m happy that you continue to write. So this has been great, Maggie.

Please let our listeners know where they can find In Polygamy’s Shadow.

Maggie: Online retailers, Amazon, Kobo, should have it readily available. And anyone who wants it here in the Lower Mainland, it’s available in public libraries. But if it isn’t in your library, please request it if you’d like a library copy.

Alexandra: I always say that too. If it’s not in your local library or your local independent bookstore, just ask. The libraries will probably get it in for you.

And we should say it’s available in paperback and e-book too, right?

Maggie: Yes.

Alexandra: Well, amazing. Thank you so much, Maggie. I really appreciate you being here with me today.

Maggie: Thank you, Alexandra. This has been fun.

Alexandra: Good. I’m glad you enjoyed it.